"ncasolowork2" (ncasolowork2)
04/24/2014 at 13:01 • Filed to: None
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"ncasolowork2" (ncasolowork2)
04/24/2014 at 13:01 • Filed to: None | 1
| 23 |
Earlier today I pointed out that !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . That they were willing to green light technology to make that happen. I've come up with a way to save costs and make pit stops potentially safer and faster. Thanks everyone for your feedback. Can you engineer something better?
!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!
1) Get rid of the wheel nut entirely and negate the necessity to have wheel guns. That eliminates 4 people on the crew. Sorry I know those are people's jobs but they are trying to save money in F1.
2) A hydraulic/electric/air jacking system under the car. It is activated when the car is stationary in the pit box or by the driver. It has been suggested that automating the activation is a bad idea.
3) Attached to the activation of the jacking system is a release mechanism for the tires. You know the choke collar method of attaching something? Where you pull down the collar and the internal bearings relax allowing you to remove whatever? The jack goes up and the collar pulls back allowing the wheel to be removed without any wheel nut or gun. Reduces the issues with misthreaded wheel nuts as well and possibly the unsprung weight of the tire.
4) When the new tire is affixed to the car the process of putting it on causes the collar to return to position and secure the tire in place.
5) When all 4 tires have been placed the jack automatically releases and the car is released.
Bernie feel free to send me a check.
SnowBallin
> ncasolowork2
04/24/2014 at 13:06 |
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SnowBallin
> ncasolowork2
04/24/2014 at 13:08 |
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an air jacking system would add weight to the car.
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ncasolowork2
> SnowBallin
04/24/2014 at 13:09 |
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Yes it would. Nobody said I had to make the cars faster. Just make the pit stops faster.
timateo81
> ncasolowork2
04/24/2014 at 13:24 |
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Michelin Defender tires have a 90k mile warranty. That should eliminate the need for tire changes completely
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ncasolowork2
> timateo81
04/24/2014 at 13:25 |
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Somehow I doubt they'd last 90,000 miles on a formula 1 car.
MonkeePuzzle
> ncasolowork2
04/24/2014 at 13:29 |
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hows about helium to help the wheel guns spin infinitesimally faster? http://jalopnik.com/5863687/a-fare…
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ncasolowork2
> MonkeePuzzle
04/24/2014 at 13:35 |
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If you look at the gif and how long the wheel guns are in place that might save .1 of a second? I've been told there is a ban on that though.
Any luck with that new iRacing code?
tromoly
> MonkeePuzzle
04/24/2014 at 14:15 |
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Yeah, good move though, Helium is expensive.
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MonkeePuzzle
> tromoly
04/24/2014 at 14:17 |
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vote read article, expense is no issue for F1, it was the fact that helium is a limited resource that led to the ban
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MonkeePuzzle
> ncasolowork2
04/24/2014 at 14:18 |
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yes, a ban.
also, indeed, luck I have :) installed, clicked buttons, configured things... have not raced though
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ncasolowork2
> MonkeePuzzle
04/24/2014 at 14:24 |
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IMO you don't need to actually enter an official race to get an idea of the iracing experience. Spectator mode is a good thing as is just open practice.
Also COTA is amazing. Amazing doesn't begin to describe it. As far as testing it yourself I recommend taking the MX-5 to Laguna Seca. The track should give you a good idea of what iRacing makes elevation changes feel like relative to any other things you've tried.
Then try the Cadillac at Okayama. Laguna Seca is a track you know, but you'll quickly find just how challenging it is when elevation change is involved. Okayama is flat. Flat is easier to try and learn to drive and the Cadillac now has traction control.
McLarry
> ncasolowork2
04/24/2014 at 14:25 |
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It's a thought, certainly. I wonder how strong those choke collars would have to be...can't have tires popping off under 5g lateral loads. Also, on the odd occasion something gets borked up with the wheel lug it can make a pit stop take forever...if one of those choke collar mechanisms malfunctioned you'd likely have to retire the car I'd think.
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ncasolowork2
> MonkeePuzzle
04/24/2014 at 14:26 |
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and if I didn't already tell you to turn off the driver arms animation. They confuse people since the arms only show you a 90 degree left or right steering lock. The reality is any of the cars that come with the trial have a 900 degree wheel lock so what you see on screen isn't representative of how much you're actually turning the wheel.
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ncasolowork2
> McLarry
04/24/2014 at 14:27 |
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Wheel nuts get mis-threaded and axle stubs have issues as well. Each idea can have failure points. The question is if the failure points can perform at acceptable reliability levels.
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tromoly
> MonkeePuzzle
04/24/2014 at 14:28 |
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Yes, I read the article when it was originally posted. I'm just saying from purchasing Helium for my work, it's really expensive compared to other solutions.
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McLarry
> ncasolowork2
04/24/2014 at 14:35 |
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True, true...Both have their failure rates, but you have to consider the severity of the failure. If there's a malfunction with the lug it doesn't necessarily end the race for the car whereas a choke collar that won't engage or disengage would mean game over.
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ncasolowork2
> McLarry
04/24/2014 at 14:40 |
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not true. See Mark Webber and Mark Webber's tire nearly kills cameraman 2013. Jenson Button retired from the British GP in 2012 for the same thing. Williams had that problem 2 or 3 times last year too. Yes those were the result of human error, but eliminating the wheel nut I'm assuming the choke collar system is more fool proof if it comes with built in sensors. Perhaps as a redundant backup system a wheelnut could be available as an option.
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tromoly
> ncasolowork2
04/24/2014 at 14:49 |
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There is not a single bit of your idea that is "Engineered", everything is thought up like an Inventor with no real analysis done to the system.
Let's look at it this way. How much lateral force is applied to the tire in cornering? That force applies a moment around the spindle, putting the bottom in compression and top in tension against the hub flange. How does your collar idea deal with this cyclic stress? An existing wheel nut has to be sufficiently large to deal with this stress, and in some instances a single nut can be too small to work with this (hence why circle-track cars run wide-5 hub pattern), this is important for keeping the wheel from backing itself off.
Further, how large does the locking collars have to be to adequately withstand the force necessary to keep the wheel attached? What about packaging, how does the system integrate in with a brake rotor, upright, caliper, etc.?
So the jacks are going to operate the collars holding wheels on, this requires a linkage going from the car out to the wheels right? Or is there another actuator (read: BULKY) on the upright/spindle, further killing packaging? Ok, so if there's a linkage, how does that affect suspension kinematics?
So have the driver run the jacks, seems alright, but can the driver see everything? Does the driver really know if he's on the correct marks, if everyone is ready, if everything is done and ready for him/her to drop and go? This is all about safety, the pit lane is easily the dangerous place for people to be during a race, do you think a driver can see if the people at the back of the vehicle are clear of the car and it is safe to leave?
Building on that, so all four wheels are put on the car and "the jacks automatically drop", where are the tire carrier's hands at this point? Likely at 4 & 8 (i.e. just underneath the sides of the tire), if the car drops and the person's hands are still on the tire what happens when the driver goes to leave? I smell broken wrists on the horizon.....
TL;DR, you really need to think through why this is important, and IMO you really need to ask why the current pit stop needs to be overhauled. Then, and ONLY THEN, can you start doing analysis on what can actually be done.
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ncasolowork2
> tromoly
04/24/2014 at 14:57 |
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I suppose my idea should say invent a faster F1 pit stop. I'm not an engineer so I don't know if my idea is functional or not, but usually in Formula 1 with enough money you can make it happen.
As far as why the current stop needs to be overhauled? F1 management wants them to be faster. Currently the process involves jacking up the car front and rear manually. Removing a wheel nut, removing a tire, replacing the tire and tightening the wheel nut.
The ONLY thing in that process that can be eliminated is the wheel nut. You still have to remove the old tire and replace it with the new tire and you still have to get the car off the ground to achieve that. Re-designing how the wheels attach to the car in a way that the wheel nut is eliminated entirely seems like the most logical way to speed up the process. A choke collar option may not be viable. I do think it is a good solution worth exploring. If anyone else can come up with a solution of how to detach and attach the wheel sans wheel nut I'd love to hear what other ideas you can come up with.
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McLarry
> ncasolowork2
04/24/2014 at 15:14 |
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Fair examples. I couldn't remember that happening to Button (had to find it, was BGP 2011 not 2012) but sounds a lot like Webber's deal (and you could throw in a couple races ago with Ricciardo too - his didn't bounce away but it could have). I seem to remember in the RBR cases at least that the pit mechanic realized the error and signaled appropriately, but the car was mistakenly released anyway. The bad release is really what caused the most damage (and ultimately the retirement) because so much time was lost retrieving the car and tire that they would be unable to recover...had they not done so they could have fixed it and gone on. I'll admit I'm not really qualified to say so, but it seems to me the only thing stopping them slapping the wheel on properly and getting back to racing was that they were now at least a lap or 2 down and unlikely to score any points. In the case of an automatic choke collar, however, if it doesn't release the old wheel or accept the new one your race is over with or without an unsafe release. That's really all I'm trying to say...wasn't trying to spark an argument or take a dump on your idea.
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ncasolowork2
> McLarry
04/24/2014 at 15:27 |
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I agree it was human error that caused the unsafe releases. The point I'm trying to make is if the reliability levels can satisfactorily be met regarding the function of the choke collars that they will be at least as reliable as the human error that releases cars with loose wheels. Seems like every week in NASCAR someone gets a penalty for not having all 5 lugs on the car.
Jambon
> ncasolowork2
04/24/2014 at 15:42 |
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What is this guy's role?
Bakkster, touring car driver
> ncasolowork2
04/24/2014 at 16:23 |
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IMO, the answer is the opposite. Cut 8 over the wall crewmen and only have two guns, make pit stops longer but more telegenic. Even better, don't mandate which 8 crew members. That gives the option of internal jacks for faster tire changes, or one tire carrier each side but no air jacks. Overall, safe stops mean they need to take their time, the faster they try to go the less time to fix a screw-up.
Also, I love their ideas of simpler brake ducts to get them glowing again, and cars that bottom out and spark again.